Hello friends,
For episode number 3 of Papa Notes presents: Conversations, I had the pleasure to chat with Joao Aguiam. We covered many different topics, including raising kids abroad and the challenges of speaking multiple languages at home.
Please watch the full conversation on YouTube: https://youtu.be/TNkypqUZGGQ?s...
Or listen to the full conversation: https://conversations.transist...
Here is the transcript
Greg:
It’s good to have you. I was just telling you before we started recording that you’re such a papa.
Joao:
Thanks for having me
Greg:
Can you tell me a bit about your kids? How many do you have? And how old are they?
Joao:
Yeah, I have two daughters. Now they are 6 and 7. The oldest one will turn 8 in October, so like 19 months apart between each other. So it’s really nice because they are very close to each other and they play a lot together. So that’s the good thing of having very close kids. On the other side, it was tough when I was a young dad, but right now everything is calmer and nicer.
Greg:
How did you feel when you got your daughter? I remember, you know, when we were pregnant with our first child, I was convinced, you could tell the story to my wife, she would laugh about it. I was convinced that it was a boy. Like I was sure we would have a boy. I had, like, I was trying to push for a name for a boy, like I was sure it would be a boy. And she called me when we got the results from the test and she was like, it’s a girl. And I was super, not disappointed, I was super confused because in my head it was a boy. And I really wanted to have a boy. And of course I’m super happy that it was a girl. She’s awesome. But did you have this feeling as well? Like were you somehow hoping to get a boy?
Joao:
Yeah, for the first one not so much, because I would like to have a boy for sure, but the first one not so much, more on the second one I was feeling that. When I knew that it was a girl on the second one, it was a little bit tougher to digest, but now if I look back, I cannot manage having a boy.
Greg:
It’s often like that. I’m bringing it up, you know, it’s not really like it’s a non-topic and it feels a bit weird maybe to some people, but you’d be surprised how many dads have shared in confidence the same feeling, like they wanted to have a boy somehow. For me, I think that it’s not really… probably one of the reasons I wanted to have a boy is because I have one now with my son, but the reason I wanted to have a boy I think is probably because I felt like it would be easier, that maybe I could relate a bit better to a boy than a girl. Of course, it turns out that it’s not true. Like I can tell, I can share that with people listening for sure that I’m very close to my daughter and I’m so happy to have a girl. But two girls, it must be also quite the experience.
Joao:
It is… I think also the boys that you relate but also… I don’t have it so I don’t know exactly. I just have some friends that have boys and I sometimes play with them. But I feel it’s also like there are things that you do with the boys that I would like also to do if I would have a son. But on the other side, there are things with the girls that… Like you’re saying, asking what it’s like to have two girls? Like when they start painting the nails and all this girl stuff. Okay, why? Why so much? But that’s part of their way of being, so it’s really nice. Sometimes it’s too much pink in my house, but on the other side, it’s such a nice feeling of having the girls. Especially because they are two girls, they play together a lot. That’s really nice for as a dad to have them playing together and being very close, I think. I don’t know, I feel that they cannot live without each other anymore because they have always been together or most of the time together except when they were really young. So if right now they are on vacation in Portugal, they are together. So they are always together, the two of them. So it’s really good for them. Yeah, it’s kind of… people sometimes say that they are twins, but it’s almost like twins.
Greg:
Do they fight?
Joao:
I think they are starting now a little bit more, not really fighting, but getting angry with each other. Not a lot, but you can see in terms of personalities, there’s one that it’s more kind of taking the leadership, the older one. But I think it’s also because at school she’s more shy. So she takes that or she uses home and their comfortable environment to show their leadership or power kind of with their sister. Sometimes I feel that between the two of them, but luckily they don’t fight too much between each other. So that’s good. I’m originally from Portugal. My wife, she’s also Portuguese, so that also makes a nice mix.
Greg:
That’s interesting. Can you share where you’re based right now? Where do you live?
Joao:
We live in Switzerland. So it’s a nice environment here because we speak Portuguese at home but they are at school in the French part of Switzerland, so they speak French at school. So at home they speak French between them sometimes when they are playing because that’s the language that they learn to play. And that’s something that I need to fight with them about, to only speak Portuguese at home and not French.
Greg:
Do you actually, you said that’s something I need to fight them on, but do you actually do it? Do you try to enforce the language?
Joao:
Yes, especially the Portuguese. I really try hard for them to speak Portuguese and try to correct them. And they follow most of the time because I feel that is important. Especially if they go to Portugal, that they don’t really feel like a foreigner or like an immigrant. So that they really also feel that they learn the culture, learn how to speak properly, but it’s very, very hard. My mom is always saying when she’s down, “Yeah, you need to correct them more often.” I cannot correct every single word, so that’s challenging as living abroad and having a dual language environment. It’s challenging, but on the other side, they get a lot of capacity for speaking two different languages, which is really nice.
Greg:
This is something I recognize.
Joao:
The funny thing is when they… Just an anecdote… The funny thing is when they don’t know the Portuguese word, they say it in French with a Portuguese accent. That’s the funniest.
Greg:
Yeah, that’s a good one. This is something I recognize as well. For me, so we live in Sweden, my wife is Swedish, I’m French. So I speak French with my kids. I speak English with my wife and my wife speaks Swedish with them. But of course, they are in a Swedish environment most of the time. So for my son, it’s not really a topic right now because he’s 18 months and he’s not going to school. But for Sophie, my daughter, when she started going to school, Swedish became quite a strong language for her. And it was a little bit of a challenge to push her to use French. She had a couple of periods where she would talk to her mom instead of talking to me because she wanted to use Swedish because it was easier. I don’t blame her for that, I think it’s quite normal and it didn’t last very long either. But it was very important for us that she could speak French well because first it’s part of her culture. I want her, the same way, exactly what you said, I want her to be able to go to France and feel at home as well. But the other thing is I want her to be able to communicate with my parents. I want her to be able to communicate with her cousins and uncle and aunt. And all of that will happen in French, even if they speak English. But you know what I mean. So that’s quite interesting. And I think now we are past the difficulty. It was really difficult, I think, when she was three. The beginning of her third year, I think, was quite a challenge.
Joao:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s also when they start to develop stronger language skills.
Greg:
Yes, but now you would listen to her. She speaks French perfectly. She has an extended vocabulary. She speaks Swedish very, very well. And she also speaks English now because she’s learned it from just hearing us speak it at home.
Joao:
That’s very good. It’s awesome. In my case, my wife speaks French better than I do. And when my kids need to share more emotions that they felt like at school or at the end of the day, they feel much more comfortable sharing that in French. And my wife accepts it more that they speak French with her than I do. So she kind of listens and speaks in French to them during those times so that they can really put into words what they are feeling. And I think that’s also very important for them. For me, I don’t like it because when I speak French with them they just make fun of me because I have a very Portuguese accent and they try to correct me and so on so I really try to avoid that. But it’s good that they can also share these feelings with my wife and are open for that. That’s good because sometimes that’s the language that they feel more comfortable with. So that’s good that they can also express kind of natively what they feel about it. But you live in a different situation, like in a different environment with many more languages. So I totally understand why your daughter was relating to your mom.
Greg:
Now it’s funny because I try to listen when she plays and sometimes she plays in English, sometimes she plays in French, sometimes she plays in Swedish. And it’s very interesting because if it’s sort of like the same game, the same fantasy, it’s interesting to hear the small differences. Let’s say I’m going to take a fictitious example, but let’s say someone could be like a doctor when she’s playing in Swedish, but then she would be like the patient if she’s switching to French, which is very… it’s very interesting to see. Sometimes it’s because some of the association, I think I’m not, I’m not a linguist, so I’m not a specialist, but I think that some associations from the words in the language, they are connected a little bit loosely when you learn the language. So for example, doctor and patient, maybe it’s part of the same corpus of words in a way. So to her, it doesn’t disrupt the fantasy because it’s still part of the same universe in a way. Again, I’m not a linguist, but that’s what I would imagine. It’s quite interesting to see for sure. I like as well what you said. I see that as well. My daughter, if she doesn’t know a word, especially in English, she will use the Swedish or the French, but make it English. So for example, she would add like “ing”, you know, like “ing”.
Joao:
It’s really funny.
Greg:
I think it teaches you a lot of things regarding learning and learning languages. Like you learn, for example, you can see that, you know, it’s interesting. I took a Swedish class in July to improve my Swedish and a lot of the efforts that were put by the teacher were on the rules. And teaching the rules of the language can be useful in a way. But if I look at my daughter, like rules have nothing to do… Yeah, it’s not the rules that are predominant. What’s predominant is the patterns. Like she recognizes how, for example, how the English words are constructed. And she tried to emulate that if she doesn’t have the correct word. So that’s quite an interesting… Like looking at a kid, at a child learning a language and learning several languages is very interesting. Because you realize as well how they make the connection between words, how sometimes they have a slight difference between the word in one language and another, maybe they don’t use it exactly the same way. And then also I think something that was quite freeing for me is to see as well that she doesn’t really care about speaking poorly. So for example, when she was, it was especially true with her English, where we put no effort teaching her English. French I did and Swedish we did. But English we put no effort. She learned from just absorbing. And one day she started speaking English. And it is completely insane. But in the beginning when she was making English sentences, it was always like quite poor English. Like words were wrong and the word order was wrong. But she didn’t care. And that also enabled her to learn. Where I think me, especially as a French, I want to speak the language that I’m learning perfectly before using it. Like I’m a little bit afraid almost to be misunderstood or to look stupid. Yeah, to be judged. But this is not how you learn. Like I look at my Swedish, I’ve progressed tremendously when I decided that I would use bad Swedish until I can speak good Swedish. So that’s all of that you learn from like looking at kids.
Joao:
It’s also kind of experimentation and errors, right? You try, maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t. Then it’s, okay, let’s try again next time. And kind of iterative learning. But sometimes they say the correct words in Portuguese, but they mean completely different things because they just apply the French words with the Portuguese accent and transformations, like similar to what you’re saying, then they’re observing and knowing how things are structured in Portuguese and that it’s completely a different word, that it’s valid, but doesn’t mean what they wanted to say. So it’s really funny. Especially, I think it should be funnier for my grandma, my moms and the family in Portugal because it’s like we understand it, but they might be like, “What the heck?”
Greg:
I think it’s super interesting to see how the language is developing in them. Something I’m struggling a little bit with is to find as well how to correct her language mistakes, because also I want her to feel like she’s free to experiment with the language in a way, but at the same time, I want her to be able to speak properly. So that’s something I’m always struggling with, trying to find the correct balance. She does the same with me that your daughter does with you, which is that when I speak Swedish, she corrects my Swedish. And she’s ruthless, you know? It’s like she doesn’t mean bad, but she corrects it like very firmly. And the same way she corrects my wife when my wife speaks French, she corrects my wife if she makes a mistake. And sometimes when I hear the way she’s… yeah, that’s true. She has the full language power. And sometimes I think when I listen to the way she’s correcting us on the language, like it’s a mirror and I’m wondering, am I being enough like charitable when I’m correcting her with the language or am I being a bit too strict in a way? So I’m always trying to tell her, you know, like lovingly, especially now. When she was little, I think I was very, I wanted her to have the correct basis of the language. But now I think I’m a little bit more cool. But when I hear her correcting us, I’m telling her, especially if there are other people, we have guests, I tell her it’s nice if you correct me in a way that doesn’t make me feel like I can’t speak at all.
Joao:
What I feel, not directly with the language, now they correct me because I try to not speak French to avoid her making fun of me. But sometimes when I’m speaking on the phone or something like that, they listen. But I think what I notice is, especially when they are playing with each other, mimicking their teacher at school and the way they speak and they are direct and very sharp with each other. And I think this mimics the way that the teacher behaves at school. And then I’m starting to think, are really teachers that harsh with them? Or is it also they are exaggerating a little bit? That’s where I notice more this mimic part.
Greg:
There is probably a bit of both, and I think when it comes to language, our human brain is calibrated to single out the things that are maybe a little bit harsher or a little bit stronger. So for a kid, it’s easier to string all of them together and it gives you the feeling of like, wow, that’s a lot. Maybe it’s harsh, but maybe it was just like one comment here and there, with the rest of the words being more normal.
Joao:
Yeah, true.
Greg:
So it’s something that we put as a rule as well in our house is that my daughter needs to speak to my son in French. So this is something that we established right away, like when he was born. Because when he was born, we were like, you probably did the same, but as soon as my daughter was born, I was talking to her like normally. Like we never used like baby talk. Right away we were just talking to her like normally. And we knew that like my daughter would try to speak to my son right away as well. So we told her from the start, we need your help. But that’s how we told her. We told her we need your help. You’re going to help us to teach him French because he’s not going to learn at school. So would you agree to just like speak to him in French? And that’s what she’s been doing. She speaks to him in French like 99% of the time. The exception being maybe if she’s like pretending to read a book to him or something. But otherwise they play in French. She talks to him in French and he can’t speak yet. Of course, he’s 18 months, but he says a few words and he says a few words both in Swedish and in French. So for example, he says “doh”, which means bye in Swedish. But this morning, for example, when he woke, he told me, he told me “boire”, which means drink in French. So that’s quite interesting. And also it’s interesting to see that he uses the correct language depending on who he’s talking to. So French with me and Swedish with my wife. Though my wife is speaking French to him as well from time to time.
Joao:
Okay, that might confuse him. Maybe she should stick with Swedish eventually.
Greg:
We will see. My daughter has never heard other French people living in Sweden telling me that their kids were mixing up languages. And with my daughter, that has never been an issue. She’s always been very good at knowing, except for if she doesn’t know a word or something like that. But otherwise, it has never been an issue. She’s been very good at knowing what language to use with whom.
Joao:
I noticed with my oldest daughter, she was born here in Switzerland. Then when she was like nine months old, we went to the US and then she was at the daycare there. We lived there for nearly two years. So I think she started to learn English there and then we came back to Switzerland and she went again to a French environment. So what happened was that she slowed down the learning of language and then she needed to have speech therapy, in the first year of school. Now she’s perfectly fine, but mixing all these languages in her mind, it slowed down her development in the beginning, but it’s something that they catch up on very quickly, so it’s not an issue.
Greg:
Yeah, yeah. I’ve heard that it’s quite common that kids who live in a multi-language environment can have a little bit of a speech delay. They can be a little bit late on developing the language. But I think it’s nothing to worry about.
Joao:
No, even I didn’t speak Portuguese very well until the age of three or four, so it’s perfectly fine. Maybe that’s some genes and not a language issue, it’s just us trying to find an excuse.
Greg:
But now you speak.
Joao:
Yeah, no, I do. The French is not the language that I speak the most with a better accent, but yeah, I’m fluent in the three languages, which is good.
Greg:
Do you see yourself going back to Portugal at some point?
Joao:
I don’t think so, especially right now because the kids are at school and stay there, like to live here. We had an opportunity when we came back from the US to Europe, we had an opportunity to go back to Portugal, but we liked living in Switzerland. So we decided to come here. So now I’m here to stay. I was thinking maybe when I retire, but then when I retire, my kids are grown up and they have their own lives here. So it doesn’t make sense. I am not going to have my family anymore in Portugal back at that time. So it doesn’t also make a lot of sense. I’d like to go there and like to visit the family and friends and spend some time there, but I think it’s good.
Greg:
What would you say is one thing that you learn from being a dad? Do you have something that comes to mind?
Joao:
Yeah, one thing that I know is I was thinking a little bit about it and I found it different than what we have when we are grown-ups. When we are grown-ups, the perception of time is completely different than when we are kids. For example, when something happens and kids are sad, in one hour, they are completely happy, and this completely switches. While for us, we can keep sad for weeks until we can leave it from our mind. While for kids, this perception of time is completely different. That’s what’s thinking about it. And this makes me… And also the way we interact with them changes. If we take that into account, it changes how we interact also with them. Because it doesn’t make sense for us to keep angry with them for something that happened yesterday or even a few days ago. Because for them it’s no longer an issue. At least that’s what I’ve been noticing, especially recently with my oldest daughter. And now I’m starting to try to make her understand the impact of these reactions on us, like longer time, but they don’t get it immediately. That’s something that… The perception of time that they have is completely different than what we have as adults. I don’t know if you feel the same.
Greg:
It’s so interesting because at first I thought you were going in a completely different direction. I thought you would say just the perception of time in general, like how maybe we can feel like something is really long and they don’t feel like that way, or we can feel like something is not that long and they can feel like it’s really long to wait. So I thought you were going in this direction. But I think the direction that you took of talking about forgiveness is a good one as well. And actually I had a conversation with someone else in a previous episode. And we talked about the same topic, like what is one thing that you learned? And this is the thing that I said. I said, I learned, like I completely reassessed the way I’m holding grudges. You know, I look at my daughter and if something, I say something or if her little brother, you know, right now he’s learning how to interact with other kids. So if he steals like a toy from her or whatever, she forgives like this instantly and she means it. It’s not just like saying the word, it’s like, no, it’s done. And I think for us, it’s very… I don’t know exactly where it comes from, but I can have a hard time forgiving when I feel like I’ve been wronged. I’m much better now than let’s say 15 years ago, or even 10 years ago. But sometimes you feel like, I’ve been wronged and you know, it’s on your heart and it’s on your mind and it’s very difficult for you to turn the page. But I think that looking at my daughter, I think it’s teaching me to at least be more deliberate about the grudges that I hold. And I don’t do it that much, I’m not really staying mad at people for a long time, but I’m really blown away every time I see her forgiving someone just like this. And sometimes in the case of her little brother, the example I was giving, she’s been wronged. She’s playing with something, he takes the toy from her. She’s entitled to feel a little bit annoyed in a way. And she is, but it lasts two seconds.
Joao:
That feeling is very… I think we have to learn a lot from them on that. It sometimes makes me think I’m sometimes too rigorous with them on that aspect and not learning with them. But you were touching on the point of this forgiveness, especially with the brother, with the young brother. What I feel with my youngest daughter is that she has a tendency to be the one that forgives the most. And sometimes she keeps it for a long time. And then sometimes her bucket is just full. So she starts, she completely explodes and gets sad for a long time. Then it goes away, then it’s empty again so she can start filling it again. So it’s also, we should be careful when we have two siblings and one of them is always forgiving, that it doesn’t create a different feeling in them later.
Greg:
I’m very attached to the… I think this is something… If I look at my own self and the way I’ve been improving over the past few years, I think that apologizing to people is something that I really learned how to do well. Sometimes I’m still missing the mark, but I think I’m very good at apologizing if I feel like I’ve done something that was not the right way to behave. We don’t fight much with my wife, which is awesome. You know what they say, “Happy wife, happy life.” I think it’s true. But if I say something, let’s say it’s one morning and I got up on the wrong side of the bed and the dishwasher hasn’t been emptied or she did something wrong with the dishwasher or I did something wrong, I don’t know. I can be just lashing out, just like, “But why is it like that?” Not anything weird, just like the regular day-to-day life. But I think I’m actually very good at just like apologizing two minutes later and say, “I’m so sorry, this is not the right way to say it.” And I think that my kids, at least my daughter, because my son is a bit too young, but my daughter, she sees that as well. I think it’s probably teaching her as well that saying I’m sorry is fine. The same way as she’s very good at forgiving, she’s very good at apologizing as well. If she does something wrong, she’s right away… She looks at me and she says, “Hey, I’m sorry.” It’s funny in the beginning, she was saying, “Hey, I’m forgiving myself.” I’m like, “That’s not exactly how it works, but it’s good that you forgive yourself.”
Joao:
I have the same with my… especially my oldest daughter, because sometimes she has the temper to really be mad and really be sad and just in a sudden moment. Then after like 5-10 minutes, it’s over and then she comes to us and says, “Sorry, I didn’t react well.” It’s really nice to have that. But if you know that, why did you do that like that? Why didn’t you notice that during that time? But they have kind of a monster in their minds that they cannot take out. Now we understand, now it’s just, okay, just give her some time. Everything will be fine in the end. Sometimes you just need to find some food to put in her mouth and then she will be fine. It’s insane.
Greg:
I recognize this with myself, like I tend to be “hangry,” like when you need to eat and it impacts your mood. Is it something like… do you feel like apologizing is something that she learned from watching you guys or did you actually tell her that it’s good to apologize or do you feel like it’s just something that developed by itself?
Joao:
We tend to… also when between them, when someone doesn’t do the right thing, we tend to tell them, “Yeah, just go to your sister and apologize for what you’ve done. Say sorry,” and so on. I think it might come from us also, but maybe not so explicitly or we don’t do that very explicitly, but we are their role models. So they tend to mimic and to react based on what we do, for the good and for the bad. I think that’s awesome.
Greg:
It’s interesting because, you know, what we’re talking about now, this idea of apologizing, it makes me feel like this is such an important skill that it almost should be taught like at school. We should spend so much time teaching people to apologize. Even as adults… when my best friend got married, I was the godfather of the wedding. They are Armenian, so they had like an Armenian wedding. So there was someone that was the godfather of the union. And I wrote in their… they had a book, like a guest book. And I wrote something, I forgot exactly what it was, but one thing I wrote is, “My advice for you as a married couple, you should try to always seek to be the first one to apologize.” And I think this is such a good… I’m not always like… I’m not perfect. I’m not always doing it. But this is such a good rule to live by, you know, like even in friendship. I think it’s not… I often say that like most fights are not worth fighting, especially with your friends. Like something happens, someone says something and then, you know, you just end up fighting with your friends where it’s…
Joao:
And sometimes it’s only misunderstandings from each other.
Greg:
Very often, for sure, or something completely external to the relationship impacting one person. Like one person might feel “hangry” or one person might feel like something else happened at work and they are just like, you know, in a state of confusion. Sometimes you pick a fight with people that you don’t want to pick a fight with. But as a couple and as a family and as a community and as human beings, I think that always trying to be the first to apologize, even if you feel like you were not wrong, is such a good hack, if I can call it this way. It makes it easier for everybody. And very often if you apologize, even though you’re not completely sure that you were like the one that should be apologizing, very often the other person will apologize as well, realizing that, “Yeah, I’m sorry.” I’m thinking about this book that my daughter loves reading right now, it’s called “La Dispute,” which means “The Fight.” And it’s a story with two friends who end up fighting over some shiny object that they found. And they both go to apologize to each other almost at the same time, and they say, “I’m sorry that I did this.” And the other character says almost at the same time, “No, I am sorry that I did this.”
You know, my daughter asked me the first few times, was like, “Why are they both apologizing?” And I told her because they value their friendship over what happened. And apologizing is a way to say, “I value our friendship over whatever caused us to fight.” So I think for a married couple, it’s a good idea to think and seek to be the first one to apologize.
Joao:
It is. But do you feel that it’s as easy for you to apologize with your wife or your external friendships or at work with your colleagues?
Greg:
It’s easier to apologize to my wife than it is to friends, I would say.
Because probably I’m the closest to my wife as well, she’s my best friend and she’s become the foundation of everything and of my life. But with my friends, I think I’m quite decent at doing it as well. I’m not really the kind that picks fights, I used to be, but I don’t think I’m really that kind anymore. I prefer when things are harmonious, which is a little bit of a paradox because I also, when I feel close to people, I tend to want to push boundaries in the sense that I want to try ideas. Like if I feel like we have… there is trust between us, I’m going to try things with you, like try ideas and sometimes even say things that I’m not completely convinced of just to try them on for size. And that can cause the other person, even if they know me a little bit or if they know me well, it can cause the person to be like, “Okay, I’m not agreeing with this,” and you know, like… so that from time to time can cause a little bit of tension, but I’m not trying to… I’m usually trying to avoid fights because I think that they bring nothing. If someone is wrong, if someone has wronged you deliberately on purpose, like you’re not going to be able to change their mind. They have to make this decision by themselves in a way. So then you have to think about like, do I value the relationship with this person more than being right and being the one who wins the argument? So, you know, with kids, I think this is something that I really want to try to teach my kids as well. It’s like if you value your relationship with someone, winning doesn’t matter because if you win the argument, you will lose something else. And that’s something that is difficult to counter-intuitive, difficult to apply, difficult to figure out. But once you know it, then you should not walk away from it. You should live by this rule that is always look at the relationship and if you value the relationship, don’t try to be winning the argument because if you win the argument, you lose something.
Joao:
Yeah, definitely. Sometimes it’s hard because you have the ego. Sometimes it’s really hard. And I feel that because I have a much closer relationship with my wife and much more comfortable in that sense that sometimes I don’t take that… I’m not thinking too much about my behavior and then I fall into that trap of not thinking too much when behaving. I’d say like that. It’s nothing dangerous, but like small things like you’re saying and just being picky about things because the first thing that goes to my mind instead of thinking twice before saying something. That’s why I was asking. Sometimes it’s easier for me or it’s harder for me at home than outside because with outside I’m always trying to think more deeply before doing something while at home I’m more freely sharing that. Sometimes it’s not that good. And the same with the kids, because I noticed already a few times being angry with my kids for some reaction. And then again, because of this perception of time or mismatch between the perception of time between me and my kids, I keep this feeling longer than what I should because it’s over for them. So it’s really a work that I need to fight with myself.
Greg:
That’s a good place to wrap up. Thank you very much for this conversation. It was awesome.
Joao:
Thanks Greg for having me. Really nice to see the Papa Notes growing.
Greg:
We should do it again.
Joao:
Yeah, thank you, Greg.
Greg:
Thank you, my friend.