Hello my friends!
For this first episode of Papa Notes presents: Conversations, I had the pleasure to have a conversation with my friend Jamie Howard.
You can watch the full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/sxUHWYaHhv0?s...
Or listen to the full conversation: https://conversations.transist...
Here is the transcript of this episode.
Greg:
It’s very interesting because, you know, writing for dads, sometimes I have this feeling like I don’t want to be too prescriptive because it feels like I’m writing to myself. I want to have the right distance to the material I’m producing because I don’t feel like a master at all. Sometimes I have an idea.
And let’s say I’m trying to deploy the idea in my day-to-day life, but most of the time it’s a work in progress. The idea of the podcast is to bounce reflections around the topic of parenthood and fatherhood, and maybe also discuss topics that are on my mind that I want to write about but don’t feel like I have clarity yet.
I’ve been talking to some of my friends who have been away with their families. One of them was in the woods, typical Swedish style—no running water, a dry toilet, and he has three kids. The youngest is probably two and a half, so it’s a bit of a circus.
Even for the brothers who are not in a situation that’s that different from day-to-day life, you can tell something is happening when you’re stuck with your family. I’m saying “stuck” in a good way, right? I love being with my family, but right now both kids are home. It’s a lot of noise. It’s a lot of activity.
It’s very difficult to focus on something for more than an hour without being disrupted. My daughter is calling me across the house, “Papa!” I run through the house, and she’s like, “The mosquito net is open.” I’m like, “You don’t need to call me for that.” I told her, “You’re welcome to come to my office whenever you want to tell me something, but if you call me across the house, it needs to be urgent.” An hour later, she’s like, “Papa!” I run through the house again, and she’s like, “I think I have the solution to this chess puzzle.”
You can come to my office whenever. Stop calling me across the house. It’s exactly that. I’ve been thinking a lot about how challenging it can be for us, especially us entrepreneurs. I have to work from home most of the time. I love being with my family, but it uses more energy than a typical day, and that’s a bit of a struggle. Some of my friends who’ve been away with their families come back and they’re still tired. So, I know you have four kids, maybe you could give a little context. You were away recently, so how did that go for you?
Jamie:
Yeah, so back in 2020, we started fostering our kids. We had four kids—four siblings—who were eight, seven, six, and five at the time. Now, they’re almost 13, but 12, 11, 10, and 9. We adopted them two years later. A few weeks ago, we celebrated two years of adoption. We live here in Georgia in the United States, and we went up to the mountains and got a cabin. It had plenty of running water and everything, so it wasn’t the exact same situation, but it was a cozy cabin kind of thing.
I’ve heard people say, “There’s no such thing as a vacation with kids. It’s traveling without all your stuff.” Because all your infrastructure is behind. Given our kids’ background, we really leaned into structure. That was a big part of what we learned in our training with foster care. Routine and structure were crucial. We even had whiteboards with the schedule for the day, which they loved. It really helped them settle into our home.
Anytime we do anything out of the ordinary, it’s always a struggle. We’ve adapted a mantra at the house: “There’s no such thing as a normal week.” Every week, there’s a call from school, a doctor’s appointment, or something unexpected. Right now, we’re in the middle of summer break, and I feel like it’s been the summer of apology because I’ve been apologizing to everyone for being chaotic and behind on everything. My wife works, I work, I have a small business that’s like a startup, and it’s chaotic. But I think there’s an opportunity in demonstrating to our kids what it’s like to live well in a state of uncertainty.
We have this thing called “mommy’s per minute,” like the mommy’s per minute is too high right now because with four kids, it’s just constant. I’m trying to focus on coding, and my kid’s like, “Hey, look at this cool picture I drew.” I want to have the right reaction, but it’s a bit irritating. Learning how to demonstrate that well has been about being honest with my kids, telling them, “I want to give you my full attention, but let me finish what I’m working on first.”
My kids are a little bit older, so I can say, “Buddy, I want to see that, but I need to finish this so I can give you my full attention.” I bring them to work with me or take them to a coffee shop, saying, “Now’s the time daddy’s going to put on his headphones and focus so that I can be present later.” It’s a balance between being there for them and making sure I can still get things done.
Greg:
You know, with my daughter earlier today, the first time I realized she was calling me because the mosquito net was open, I felt very frustrated because I was in the middle of something, and it disrupted me. Then I had to try to find the flow again, which was already interrupted a few times this morning. The second time she called, I could feel myself boiling inside. It’s difficult because I don’t want to be boiling. She’s my priority, and I want her to feel like she’s my priority.
But I also want her to understand that she shouldn’t abuse it. It’s a tricky thing with kids because you want them to know they’re the priority, but you also want them to learn to self-regulate. It’s like, “With great power comes great responsibility.” You are my top priority, but please, don’t abuse it. Something I’ve noticed, talking to my friends, is that when you’re in a confined space with your family for two or three weeks, it can drain your battery of patience.
At first, you manage to keep in mind that you’re on vacation and that it’s okay for things to be chaotic. But by the second or third week, if you haven’t been able to disconnect and enjoy the vacation, you might have less patience than when you arrived. That’s a bit of a struggle. My youngest is 18 months, and my daughter is in preschool. We pulled her out of school a little early because of all the sickness going around, so she’s been home for about three months.
At first, it was great because I could work and then spend time with her. But now, after three months, with an 18-month-old who loves running around and screaming, and my daughter with all her energy, it’s becoming a lot. Even though she’s a calm kid, if she doesn’t expend that energy, she becomes a tornado. Did you feel the same way? You didn’t stay away very long, but maybe in previous experiences, did you feel like this battery drain?
Jamie:
Yeah, I think it’s common. For us, that week was great. We had some personal tragedy at the beginning of the week, so it was actually a beautiful time for us. It was a celebration of two years of adoption. One thing I’ve learned over the years, working with teenagers and kids, is to understand the different phases of kids’ lives and the roles we play at different points.
We take a little week-long vacation every summer to a cabin. When we first started doing it, it was very different from how it is now, four years later, because the kids are older. This time, it was incredibly fun. They had all these board games at the cabin, and we brought some too. We played, laughed, and had a perfect time. It was a restful week.
But we learned from the first time we went that our idea of a cozy cabin trip wasn’t realistic. We came home saying it was miserable because we thought we could manufacture this magical moment. What we learned was, if we take them hiking every day, then we can have those sweet moments in the evening when everyone’s worn out. It’s all about managing expectations and adapting the schedule to fit the people you’re with.
During COVID, when schools shut down, it was a real struggle being cooped up with the kids all the time. We had to figure out how to make it work without yelling at the kids out of anxiety or exhaustion. It’s not just the parents who feel that way; the kids do too. They want a break from us just as much as we need one from them. Sometimes, even my wife and I need to sit apart and read our own books to enjoy our time together. You need that balance of togetherness and breaks.
Greg:
I hear two things in what you just said. The first is adjusting your expectations. Like you said, the first time you went to the cabin, you were expecting something that wasn’t realistic, and then you were disappointed. We all do that sometimes, imagining situations with our families or friends that aren’t real, and then we get let down. The second thing is adapting the schedule and activities to the people involved. If I’m going with just my wife, we’ll plan around what we want to do. If we’re with friends, it’ll be different. But if I’m going with kids, I need to plan strategically so that everyone gets their energy out during the day, and then we can have those cozy moments in the evening.
I have to ask, what are the board games you guys are playing?
Jamie:
They’re at a really fun age right now. I tell my friends, who mostly have younger kids, that this is the golden moment. Last night, for instance, my wife had to go to a small group at church, so I was home with the four kids, and we played Phase 10. It’s kind of like Uno, a really fun but ruthless game. The kids were dying laughing, skipping each other, and just having a blast.
We brought some board games with us, but we also play chess, Ticket to Ride, King of Tokyo, and at the cabin, we played Phase 10, Sushi Go, and Codenames. Some of our kids are still struggling with reading, but they always want to be involved. My youngest, Hosanna, is eight and still struggles with reading, but she’s a cutthroat killer in any game. She beat me in Risk the first time we played. She has a mind for strategy, and I tell her that’s one of God’s gifts to her.
Greg:
How patient are you?
Jamie:
I’m pretty patient, I think. But it can be a struggle. When you play board games with kids, the experience varies depending on their age. My daughter is four, and she’s good at understanding rules, but it can take time for her to really grasp them. I’m not very patient when it comes to that kind of stuff. I can fake patience, but for me to actually have fun, the kid needs to know how to play the game. Do you struggle with that, or do you still have fun even when they’re learning?
Greg:
Yeah, I think this is a bit of a struggle. When I want to play board games with my daughter, it takes time for her to fully understand the rules. But once she gets it, it’s really fun.
Another topic I’d like to explore is how my daughter loves chess and wants to be good at it. She says she wants to beat Hikaru. She’s four, and she’s already really good at chess, but it’s a difficult game to learn. We do a lot of chess puzzles together. Most of the puzzles I set up are relatively easy, but yesterday, I set up a more advanced puzzle that she struggled with for a long time. She eventually lost interest and couldn’t find the answer. I told her to take a break and try again later. She went back to it today and still couldn’t solve it.
It was a struggle for me to decide whether to tell her to give up or keep pushing her. I’m also starting to wonder how I’ll react when she eventually tells me she doesn’t want to do chess puzzles anymore. I know it’s important to build discipline, but I’m wondering how much I should push. Do you have any thoughts on when it’s time to intervene and maybe tell them to stop or when to encourage them to stick with it?
Jamie:
Yeah, I have a couple of examples. In that chess example, there’s no reason why you can’t offer a hint if the puzzle is too advanced. Maybe give her a hint and see if she can solve it with that. There’s a concept called “flow state,” where you’re fully immersed in an activity, and it’s challenging but not so difficult that it’s insurmountable. It sounds like she was close to that but maybe hit a wall.
We do Taekwondo in our family, and it’s a great example of disciplined pursuit. When the kids first start, the instructors don’t critique them much; they just let them have fun. The idea is that if they have fun, they’ll be more likely to work through the difficult moments because they love it. My oldest daughter is now three belts away from a black belt, but she’s starting to lose interest. I’ve told her that if she wants to stop, that’s fine, but she needs to commit to something and see it through, even when it gets hard.
There’s a balance between pushing them to do hard things and not inflicting your will on them. It’s about being lovingly tough. I remember asking my son if he wanted to spar, and he kept asking me until I finally let him. Now, sometimes he says he’s tired, but I remind him that he asked for this and he loves it once he’s done.
Another example is my oldest daughter’s challenge to read the New Testament in 21 days. She was excited about it at first, but it was a big challenge. I asked her if she wanted me to keep her accountable, and she said yes. When she faltered, I sat her down and told her I was proud of her for even trying. I asked if she wanted to keep going or if it was too much, and she chose to keep going. It’s about finding that balance between pushing them and supporting them.
Greg:
I recognize the experience of being a kid and wanting to do everything—play the drums, piano, football, karate. I was searching for what I liked and trying to figure out who I was. My parents could have pushed me to focus on one thing, but I’m not sure it would have been a good thing. There’s a part of me that wishes I had been pushed, but I also think it could have killed my interest in exploring different things.
We’re not all meant to be the same. Some people are meant to be extremely good at one specific thing, while others are meant to be generalists. It’s fine to be either.
It’s difficult to assess if you’re in a flow state, and it’s even harder to know if someone else is. Sometimes you don’t recognize it in the moment. When I see my daughter focusing on the chessboard, I can assume she’s in a flow state, but she might be thinking about unicorns. Do you have any thoughts on how to bring someone else into a flow state or how to assess if they’re in one?
Jamie:
Yeah, we’ve had this specific conversation, my wife and I, about wanting to help the kids find their “thing.” I also took guitar lessons as a kid and hated it. But when I was 14 or 15, I picked it up on my own and couldn’t put it down. It’s similar to coding—I almost failed my computer programming class in high school, but I could sit for hours and code at home.
It’s about finding what drives you. For kids, you can absolutely tell when they’re in a flow state. My youngest daughter does crafts during her quiet time before bed, and she gets completely absorbed in it. My son didn’t get into Legos until recently when he received a Lego set from his grandfather, and suddenly he was hooked. When they’re lost in something like that, it’s a good indicator of their flow state.
We’ve noticed this with reading too. Our kids struggled with reading when they first moved in with us, but now they read all the time. It’s been a big journey, and I get excited when I see them with a book.
Greg:
I have to ask, do you stamp your kids’ books as well? I was surprised when you sent me that book with your Ex Libris stamp.
Jamie:
Yeah, we do have a stamp for our books, with “Ex Libris” on it, meaning “from the library of.” My wife and I are big readers, and we have tons of books. We got the stamp as a Christmas gift one year, and my wife had so much fun stamping all our books. The kids sometimes stamp theirs too, though they’re more into getting books from the library. We go to the public library almost every weekend, and the kids get a stack of books, movies, and audiobooks. They’ve become voracious readers, which is a lot of fun.
Greg:
I was smiling about the French horn story because I like the French horn. It’s a fantastic instrument, and my daughter has been really interested in it after hearing it during mass. We’ve watched a few videos of people playing the French horn together. And it’s funny because a couple of days ago, I wrote a new essay for Pappa Notes, and I used the example of a kid trying to learn the French horn.
Jamie:
That’s awesome! I need to have my daughter record a video of her playing, and I’ll send it to you guys.