Conversation: Fairness, injustice, and unshakable joy

Hello friends,

Papa Notes presents: Conversations is back with a new episode!

Listen to my very interesting and eloquent friend Mukom talk about parenting.

You can find the full conversation on YouTube: https://youtu.be/iSO39N_yUwo?s...

Or listen to the full conversation: https://conversations.transist...

Here is the transcript

Mukom:

Hi Greg, I’m doing great. Nice to catch up with you again. How have you been?

Greg:

I’ve been very, very good. It’s nice to talk to you. When I started doing this podcast, you were one of the first people that I thought about because you and I, we love talking to each other, and I know how important it is for you to be a dad as well. Can you maybe talk a little bit about your daughter and your experience as a dad?

Mukom:

So my daughter is seven years old. I think I told you this before: the day I had her, I understood why someone said, “Now you know what it means that there’s someone for whom you’re willing to give up your life.” Until the day I got a daughter, that was the day that became really real for me.

Because we live in Mauritius, maybe it’s a good thing that we had her, my wife and I, here in Mauritius and not in Ghana or Cameroon, where we’re from. If we were back in Ghana or Cameroon, close to home, I might have had a different, not-so-good relationship with my daughter. The reason is that if you’re back home, there’s this whole army of people who would have swooped in to take care of the baby, take care of the mother, and all of that. But in Mauritius, it’s just the two of us. Yeah, we could hire a nanny, but the nanny doesn’t start until the child is at least one month old. For that first month, it was just my wife, our daughter, and me, as first-time parents. That kind of forced me to design my life around my daughter. I always say something weird: the period my daughter was born, I was actually more productive than usual because I optimized my schedule around her. So it was just the two of us.

I said, “Look, there’s no reason…” Because, of course, before that, I’m a geek. So I’m always reading, “New parents can’t sleep because of this and that.” So my wife and I decided, “Look, it’s just the two of us. We have to design this.” So this is what happened. Every day at 9:30, I would go and sleep in another room. My wife was up with our daughter. Then at 3 a.m. every morning, I would get up, go and get my daughter from my wife’s room, and shut the door.

Greg:

That is so smart. I feel like when my son was born, it was also one of the most productive times in my life, but for a different reason. I think it’s because whenever my son was waking up, I would get up as well. My wife has been trying to pump as well, but I think that he needed the comfort of being with his mom, probably more than my daughter. So whenever he would wake up in the middle of the night, I would get up as well and work.

So I actually have done some work while being sleep-deprived for the first couple of months. But it was quite challenging because he didn’t sleep very well. He slept well for one or two months, and then it’s been quite rough after that. You said something, you said, I understood for the first time that I had someone that I would give my life for. But to me, you always struck me as someone who is very engaged in things, and I would have no problem imagining you giving your life for what you believe to be just. How is that relatable to the experience of having a kid?

Mukom:

You know, giving your life is something that is just an abstract notion, right? But having that thing living and breathing and crying and depending on you feeding it. To have that thing in flesh, I think, is just a different experience. I think that’s what makes it different. To go further, I remember one of the blog posts you did earlier in this episode, where you said, “You will never not worry.” I mean, those are a couple of things that happened. Now I realize there’s someone for whom I’m willing to give my life. Then I realized, I read this in some book a long time ago, that when you become a parent, there’s this raw emotional wound that will never heal. I understood it when I had a child because then I was constantly worried. Constantly worried. Then I’ll reach out to all the friends who are parents, and they told me, “You know what, one of my friends who used to be one of my bosses here in Mauritius said, ‘Look, my daughter is older than you, and I still worry about her.’ So this feeling you’re having will never go away.” And that’s why when I saw that blog post right there, “You will never not worry,” immediately, it took me back to that period.

Greg:

Yeah, you recognize the similar experience. It’s very interesting how we believe that our experiences with kids are unique. When you talk to people who have kids, they’ve been through the same things, they’ve experienced the same worries or the same suffering. For me, there was also something that became really real. I definitely felt like when my daughter was born, that now I had something or someone that I would die for.

And as you said, you pointed out that it’s a very different experience than, let’s say, feeling like you would give your life for your wife, even. It’s a different experience. But there is something else as well. I realized that suddenly I had the responsibility for my own self and my own preservation as well. Because I had someone who was completely reliant on me. And I think before that, I thought that my life had much, much less value in a way. Because yeah, my life was mine, meaning I could do something dangerous.

My life is mine, like nobody really depends on me. And I realized that suddenly this was not the case anymore. Suddenly I had a… You know, you and I talked a little bit about stoicism before. There is this quote that I loved and I’ve been thinking about since the day I heard it. It might have been Seneca who said, “If your house is on fire and there is too much smoke, just leave the house.”

I’m paraphrasing, but that’s the idea. And I’ve lived with this thought in my mind since I heard it. Meaning the way you can understand this phrase or this quote is if life becomes unbearable, there is always an exit in a way. I’m not saying that I would have, but you know what I mean? And I think when my daughter was born, I realized that there was no door to the house.

It’s like it does. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. So that’s actually something that I’ve suffered from in the beginning. I remember telling my wife because she knew that I had this quote that I lived by. And I remember telling her, feeling very distressed, that I had realized that now it was not an option anymore, that no matter how bad life is, you have the responsibility of preserving yourself because you have a kid. And by the way, right now I’m talking about the negative aspects, but it has a lot of positive aspects as well. Before I was working out just because productivity, positive effects, or whatever. Now it’s also like, I want to stick around as long as I can to be with my daughter and my son. So I’ve just reminded that when you tell me about your experience of feeling, “Right now I have someone that I would give my life for.” I’m reminded of my experience, which was both that and now I have the responsibility for myself as well.

Mukom:

And those two things are connected. I see those two things as connected. The reason that you don’t have to see a door is simply because you can’t, because there’s someone for whom you give your life. If getting out of that house means leaving someone, your daughter, behind, you’re going to choose to die rather than do that.

Greg:

This is good, yeah. You were mentioning the post, “You will never not worry.” There is another one that I wrote, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts about. I wrote something that said, the question was, “Should you teach your kid to cheat?” And that’s a question that a friend of mine or someone that I know asked. And I remember when he asked it, I had this very visceral reaction and I told him, “No, absolutely not.” That was my first answer. You should not teach your kid to cheat. And I think what he meant was, should we tell them about the unfairness of life and how if you play by the book, you might end up not getting what you want? So my answer right away was, “No, no, no, you should not.” And then after thinking about it and writing the post for PapaNotes, I realized that, of course, it’s a way more nuanced answer than I originally gave. So I’m curious what you think about when we talk about this topic. Are you teaching your daughter to cheat? And even if you’re not doing it in a very deliberate way, for example, if you play a board game, do you sometimes just cheat, making it obvious that you…

Mukom:

No, I don’t do that. I don’t do that. But I think I’ve seen when she tries to do that with my wife and then my wife says, “Stop, don’t do that.” And the reason that question resonates with me is because I’m… You know how there’s this principle that says the myth of the just world, right? There’s a just world myth that one of the things that leads to so much pain, particularly in the workplace, is the belief that the world is a fair place. It’s not, right? And sometimes I think that belief has hurt me a lot. Where I always believed that the world is a just place, and then I go out there and get taken advantage of. Now the question is, when I act in ways that recognize the inherent injustice in the world, is it cheating? Is it cheating if it’s protecting myself from being taken advantage of?

Of course, you don’t want your child to grow up to be a taker, in the parlance of Adam Grant, the world is made of takers and givers, right? And I want my child to be a giver, but not be so naive that they become a victim to the world’s injustice. So if teaching them to protect themselves from the injustice of the world means… If that’s what it means, then by all means, I’m going to teach my child how to cheat.

The thing is, she should never become a victim of the world’s injustice. If she does become a victim, it should be because she’s made a conscious decision that “I am going to become a victim rather than compromise certain principles.” Yeah, that’s what I find important.

Greg:

Yeah, so it’s about what you’re saying is about being a victim but accepting it beforehand in a way.

Mukom:

Yes, and for a good reason. There’s a principle I’m not willing to cross in order to get this.

Greg:

That’s more like a martyr in a way more than simply…

Mukom:

And then the second thing too is that, we live in… My daughter is Black. She goes to an all-white and mixed-race school. So she’s already having to experience the fact that people treat her differently, sometimes not good, sometimes good, right? And so she’s beginning to ask the difficult questions to her mother and to me, which means that we’ve had to teach her to be a bit more assertive about, you know, not getting taken advantage of… In a way, you would say that’s cheating because she can’t afford to wait her turn. She has to be more assertive than usual. She can’t wait for the teacher to come to defend her. She has to stand up for herself because sometimes the teachers just won’t. You know, they would make fun of her and try to take advantage of her, and the teacher just won’t be there. So we are trying to be, particularly my wife, trying to say, “Look, you don’t have to play by the rules for everyone else in that school because you are different. Those rules are going to hurt you.” So in a way, I say that’s cheating.

Greg:

Yeah, so it’s not cheating, but it’s not refusing to conform to rules that are unjust, correct? How do you teach her that? Do you actually tell her about this notion of injustice as well? This is difficult to teach to a seven-year-old.

Mukom:

It is difficult to teach. When it comes to this particular… like how she gets treated in the playground by people who don’t look like her, it’s my wife who mostly deals with that. “Stand your ground. When someone is doing something to you that they should not be doing, say ‘Stop.’ Do you understand?” Because normal upbringing will say, “Don’t raise your voice, don’t scream.” Of course, don’t hit someone, but if you have to scream, scream to get someone’s attention.

So my wife is very proactive in saying this. “Don’t keep quiet and cry,” because she might just keep quiet, and then when we go to pick her up from school, she just bursts out crying. She just bursts out crying. So we’re trying to teach her that if someone is doing something that makes you sad or angry, tell them to stop. Repeat to stop, raise your voice if you need to so that you can get the attention of an adult.

Greg:

When we talked about worrying, you mentioned that first. Do you feel like maybe you have extra worry about your daughter because of that? Because of her different skin color? Do you feel like it’s an extra worry for you about how she’s going to have to live life?

Mukom:

Of course. This relates to a question that we just had recently. You said that when you became a father, you stopped living for yourself. And you said you just can’t run out of the smoking building anymore. I’m a Black guy who has traveled all over the world. I’ve faced lots of what I would call racist microaggressions at the airports, at the migrations, and all of that. I’ve just never taken it personally, right?

Maybe it’s because this is a story I tell myself that they’re just doing their job, etc. But it’s different when I see my daughter receiving any of that. So I can’t give her my justifications. So that has made me much more aware. And for a long time, it wasn’t much of a problem to me until my wife started pointing out to me, at the playground, in the school, and all that. So I’m much more aware that she’s growing up in an environment that is not always going to be conducive to her. Of course, it’s good. I mean, I must say it’s not an everyday occurrence that happens, but it’s a tendency. The thing is that she’s much more aware of her skin color than if we were in Cameroon or Ghana, right? You have probably heard Black Americans say that when they come to Africa, they forget that they are Black. But if you go to certain places, you’re always conscious because the world reminds you of what you are. And of course, there are some nasty people.

But fortunately, I think we’ve trained her enough. She’s proactive enough that it hasn’t gotten to a point where she’s excluding herself. She still sees people like, “This is just another auntie who’s white or brown.” She goes and interacts unless she gets that behavior from the other person that, “You are different.” That’s when she becomes confused because in her mind, we haven’t trained her to see herself… “Don’t go interact with this person because she’s not like you.”

We have not trained her, and she has not learned that. She’s just, “Okay, this is someone, she’s another kid that you may want to play with, go play with.” It’s an auntie that you say hello to and hi to. But when those other aunties or those other kids, for some reason, don’t treat her the same, then she gets really confused. And how to explain that to her is a bit challenging, and it’s still something that we are learning as we go.

Greg:

Do you feel like it’s something that you learn as you go, or is there actually good literature and stuff like that on this topic? I feel like I’m completely ignorant on…

Mukom:

I would say if we were… okay, both my wife and I were born and raised in Africa, in Kenya. If you had been born in a place like France or the US where it is an issue, then maybe we would have been better prepared. Because when this thing happened, I went online and started researching all of that. Then I read about mixed-race parents in France, in the UK, even in America, where a white woman has to sit down her children, especially her sons, and give them “the talk.” And there was this one that was quite heartbreaking. A white woman who had a white son from another marriage and a mixed-race child. So literally two brothers, one white, one Black. And she had to tell her white son how he needs to protect his Black brother when they’re out together. Because you see your brother. The world just doesn’t see your brother.

The world sees someone who’s threatening and all of that. That just broke my heart. But because I live in that kind of system, I think they’re much more ready for it. That’s a conversation. Nothing in my upbringing prepared me for that kind of conversation.

Greg:

Give me some hope. Tell me that the world is still better now than our generation. Tell me that there is some improvement in that matter.

Mukom:

I think it depends. So I grew up in a little village in Cameroon that was mixed in a way. One of my weaknesses is that I was sheltered from things like overt racism and systemic racism because I grew up in a nice, beautiful, middle-class village in Cameroon, and we had this hospital that had doctors. Most of the doctors were white, but there were also Black doctors. So I never grew up thinking that someone is superior to me because of the color of their skin until I left my village, right? Because as you get into the city and there’s this individualism, then those things become much more pronounced. And as you go to countries, especially now that you have this wave of this anti-immigrant sentiment that goes through the ages. Right now it’s rising, which means that it’s happening in lots of different countries. So I think we are in a phase where it’s getting worse, whether it’s Europe or America. If kids listen to television, they’re going to hear things being said about people that look like them, right? And of course, you’re going to see people get on the street and protest, “We don’t want people that look like you in this country.” That wouldn’t happen if we were, say, in Ghana or in Cameroon.

So I think we are going through a wave where we’re going through the worst of it. And hopefully, I know this because historically, there have been periods of huge anti-immigrant sentiment. But I would say overall, there’s anti-immigrant sentiment and then there’s overt racism. I think the overt racist things, over time, are getting better because more and more people are realizing it’s not a…

Greg:

You are well-versed in the subject, and I can tell that you’ve been thinking about it quite a lot. Is it something that you imagine yourself discussing with your daughter when she gets a bit older? And if so, what do you think is the proper age to start talking about it in a very advanced manner, the way you’re doing it?

Mukom:

I wish I could say that I’ve thought that far. But I think that the way I would deal with it is on a case-by-case basis. And which is why, in one of your posts, you wrote that when you give attention, you’re giving love. And one of the ways to give attention, and this is something I learned from my wife, is to ask about her day. What went through her day, when you pick her up from school, look at her day, is she happy, is she sad, and all of that, right? Because it is in those conversations that you’ll find teachable moments, right? Not just the negative side. If there’s a day when she’s very excited because there’s this friend who stood up for her, you can say, “That is friendship.” And you notice that it had nothing to do with your skin color or the language you spoke, etc. And if it’s a negative experience, I’ll have to try my best to see what is a teachable lesson. What can I teach her in that moment?

Greg:

I don’t want to make it the whole thing about this specific issue, but I want to say something. When we’re discussing it now, I’m realizing some of my shortcomings in a way because, to me…

Of course, I see racism, but not that much in Sweden, because I think I’m also not hanging out with people that are racist. But also, I think sometimes maybe I’m a little bit too naive in that sense because of the crowd that I hang out with. And then the other thing is that it’s going to sound a bit stupid, but I look at you. I don’t look at a Black guy. You know what I mean? I look at my friend.

And I think that somehow, because I think this way, my prism, in a way, is a little bit angled in a way that prevents me from seeing the reality of how bad the situation is. It’s a blind spot. Yeah, it’s a blind spot for sure.

Mukom:

Yeah, it’s a blind spot, so to speak. Right. Blind spot. And I was telling you that I had that… I don’t know if it’s a blind spot or is it a story that I told myself. I told you, like, I have traveled. You’ve heard stories about Black people feeling a certain way because of their travel experiences. But I don’t do that. I said, “Complain to me because I’ve told myself a story that they’re just doing their job.” But all of my friends say, “I’m sorry, you are telling yourself a story to protect the hurt that you think is being meted out on the microaggressions.” So it is a blind spot simply because you’ve… How did we meet? We met on a small forum. We got together based on mutual interests, and then we have things that… But we have lives that are out of this. If you and I were to get on a plane, say I came to visit in Sweden, and we were to get on a plane and say, let’s take a trip to 10 different countries. Trust me, that blind spot, you’d lose it within two days. So it’s just that the nature of our relationship, our interaction is such that the opportunities for you to see that I’m not like you, it doesn’t happen.

Greg:

Yeah, that’s a good point. To go back to the topic of parenting, that also makes me feel that I want to, because this is not a topic we discuss with my daughter at all. She knows I have a friend, for example, a new friend that I like very much. He has a daughter that is a little bit younger than my daughter, and he’s Black. They are Black. And it has never shown up in the conversation with my daughter. She’s four.

Maybe it’s a bit too soon to tell her about racism, but I would like her to be aware that she might, at some point, encounter situations where people are mistreating her friends because of the color of their skin. And it’s interesting because before this conversation with you now, I never thought that this was something that I needed to discuss with her. I thought maybe it would show up at some point, but I never thought that I should probably do it almost preemptively.

So that she… You know what I mean? So that’s very interesting. Thank you so much because this is not something…

Mukom:

I totally understand what you mean. And I think that is important. I thank you for considering it because I often quote an example. Do you remember South Africa and its apartheid system, right? Every white South African child grew up with their face on a Black woman’s back. They fed them, carried them, bathed them. And then, at a certain age, they look at these people as less than human. It’s simply because they were trained that way. So in the same way, I think…

You can also say, be careful because at a certain age, something is going to happen in school, a behavior she’s going to see, and it’s okay. You know, it’s okay to treat people that are not like you in a different way. Unless you have instilled into her that value to recognize when it happens and say, “I’m not going to be part of…”

Greg:

I want to say that I’m a little bit sorry that we are talking about that because I’m conflicted. In a way, I feel like it’s such an important topic, and I think you’re the best person to talk about that because you and I know each other a little bit now. At the same time, I feel like this is also something that sometimes I’m a little bit afraid that if you give it too much attention, it also becomes something that is bigger. Like you give it a possibility to grip. I think that finding the right balance is very difficult to find. Like I could imagine, for example, if I were you, that this is not necessarily something that I want to discuss when I go on a parenting discussion. I don’t know. What do you think? Do you think this is a perfect topic for a parenting conversation?

Mukom:

So in the sense of not having blind spots… okay, I didn’t plan to talk about this, but I just told you that when you asked me about the experiences, if I had raised my daughter in Ghana or back in Cameroon, do you realize that this would never have come up? Because the experiences that would have led to a negative experience with my daughter… I wouldn’t even have that. I would have that blind spot. And I’m not sure you realize, there’s always a big conflict between Black Americans and African immigrants. I’m sure it happens in Paris as well, European Africans versus African immigrants. They see a lot more racism, and they complain that we African immigrants are too arrogant. We think we’re better than them because we think they’re lazy. They don’t obey the rules and all of that. It’s that blind spot that we grew up with. We have no idea what these things mean. So we don’t understand their lived experience. And so when we diminish them, they get angry. So in the same way here, okay, I didn’t mean to talk about this, but it just happened because we’re talking about our daughters. This is an experience that has happened to my daughter. But if we had this conversation 10 times and it never came up, it would be inauthentic because, whether I like it or not, that is going to be a part of my life.

I don’t go seeking it because even I have that problem with where do I draw the line? Whenever it happens, when do I just gloss over it versus make her realize that this is something she should pay attention to? That is part of the struggle of a parent. Of course, it happens in lots of different things. Cheating versus not cheating, that nuance. Standing up for when you think someone is being racist, being anti-feminist, and all of that. When to draw that line, I think, is a conundrum that every parent faces. And I wish there were a formula. Maybe ChatGPT would tell us, but I don’t see it. So what I’m saying is, it’s perfectly normal that this came up. And I think that if you had this conversation for a long time with your parents, say let’s say 100 episodes, and no one ever spoke about it, and you had people that looked like me, then it would not be authentic because it’s part of a lived experience.

Greg:

I’m super happy that we went this way. That was not exactly my plan, but I think this was so much better. I think that now in your beautiful… I was about to say exposé, but don’t take it as a wrong thing. I think it was very well put. I think you gave life to the end of the essay in which I talk about how we need to teach our kids to make the difference between the rules that are real rules and important rules to obey, and the rules that are unjust and you need to be able to… let’s say to be free enough in your mind to know that it’s time to break them. And your role as a father is to teach them which are the rules that need to be broken. And you gave life to what it means to have unjust rules. I mean, you gave several examples, which I really thank you for. So that was great. It was really good. That was not the plan, but it was perfect.

We’ll do it again. You have to say yes now. We’ll do it again. And next time we’ll talk about something that is a bit more on my plan. But this was…

Mukom:

Is there anything you want to add?

Greg:

So let’s end on a brighter note. I would like to ask…

What is something incredibly positive that is in your life that you think is only there because you’re a parent?

Mukom:

Hmm, that’s a good question.

I’ll tell you one for me. Earlier in this discussion, I told you that when I became a parent, I suddenly understood what it means—two  things. You will never not worry. Two, there is someone for whom you are now willing to give your life. But the third thing for me is that I know there’s a difference between joy and happiness. Completely different things. There are times when I’m miserable, but there’s always joy in my heart when I see my daughter. Doesn’t make sense.

But it only made sense to me when I became a father. That happiness and joy are two different things. And you can have joy in the absence of happiness. There are times when I know for a fact the circumstances in my life are making me not happy. But there’s never not been joy in my life when I see my daughter.

Greg:

That’s so beautiful. The one I’m going to give is a bit cliche and it’s going to make me look bad, but I realized since I have my daughter, I realized how bad I can be at holding grudges. And I see my daughter, how quick she is to forgive. You know, I can do something wrong or whatever, and she will forgive, like her little brother, you know, he’s still learning how to behave as a human being. He’s 18 months old now. So he does a lot of things that maybe she doesn’t like, but she forgives just like that. And I think this is definitely something good that has been put in my life—recognizing my shortcoming when it comes to forgiveness and how I could be better at forgiving. It makes my grudges even more ridiculous now. When you see a four-year-old who is capable of forgiving right away.

Mukom:

Because you are thinking, “Gosh, I am supposed to be modeling this behavior to this little girl. And she is the teacher, and I’m the student.” That’s amazing.

Greg:

100%. I would add a second thing as well, because you said two, so I’m going to give another one. It’s the unconditional love. I think it’s very easy to say, “I can give unconditional love.” But with her, I realized that I actually can. You know, I feel like I can be telling her sometimes, “I can be upset at you because you misbehaved,” but “I will never not love you.” Like this is something you have, it’s granted, it can’t be removed, it can’t be removed by anyone else, it can’t be removed by me. This is something that is there forever. And I think those are just words when you’re not a dad, but when you’re a dad, you realize that. You see it.

Mukom:

Yes, I would like to do it sometime.

Greg:

Let’s do it again.